The Big Exit
The Big Exit

Episode 7 · 1 year ago

Josh Dorkin Bootstrapped BiggerPockets to a Big Exit

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Dan Daugherty interviews Josh Dorkin who founded BiggerPockets in his living room with $12 bucks. Josh tells his story of wanting to quit, having 3 nervous breakdowns, and eventually selling to a private equity company. Josh talks about what he did to get to a place of happiness and how big changes in his life became catalysts that helped him, his family, and the business grow. 

Beginning Transcript

Dan Daugherty - Welcome to this episode of The Big Exit. I'm your host, Dan Daugherty. And today I have a good friend, Josh Dorkin who is the founder and former CEO of BiggerPockets. Josh, thank you for coming on the show. 

Josh Dorkin - Excited to be here, man. 

Dan Daugherty - You know, I've got a lot of feedback from the listeners that said, Hey, big exits are great, but I noticed that a lot of the founders that you have interviewed have raised significant amounts of money, and I immediately thought of you because you've bootstrapped BiggerPockets from I remember your Washington Park house where we met to really a multimillion dollar organization. And I'm excited to have you on board to really tell the story of how you went from zero to an exit without ever raising a single dime of outside capital. 

Josh Dorkin - Well, if you put it that way, it sounds pretty good. Yeah, Yeah, I I mean, you know, you want me to just take it from the beginning, or..

Dan Daugherty - Yeah, let's start from the very beginning. I remember you and I met In, must have been, what? When did you found BiggerPockets? 

Josh Dorkin - Yeah. So it must have been 07, maybe that we connected and you and I were talking about, you know, you were thinking about buying different companies, and and we were just chatting about that. That didn't go well for me, but, uh, but yeah, no, it's been, um it's been a very, very long journey. Um, you know, like like any entrepreneurial story, lots of ups, lots of downs. And, um, inevitably, um, you know, really struggled through those those difficult times. But, you know, I think the key was just persevering through those in order to come out at the end. But, um, I I looked at the cycle as a multistage cycle. When I started BiggerPockets, it was I was teaching special Ed. I was teaching high school in Los Angeles. 

The company, by the way, is the largest real estate investing media company and community out there. We're all about trying to help people build wealth, learn how to build wealth through real estate investing. And so back in 04 I was living in Los Angeles, I was teaching special ED at high school, I bought a bunch of property, as a result of my brother encouraging me to do so. And, uh, you know, I thought I was a smart guy, I went to college, you know, all these all these things and bought property thousands of miles away, which would would normally be a challenge. But I didn't really do my homework. And so what happened was little by little, I found myself running into some problems and I didn't quite know how to deal with those problems. There were books, but like, you know, the books were pretty general. They didn't really say, What do you do when your tenant is stealing electricity from the building next door? What do you do when somebody is ripping the copper piping out of your vacant unit? You can't find that. And all that was out there were there were communities forums, but they were all kind of tied to or in cahoots with, I call them the Gurus that get rich quick crowd. Um and you know, the the issue I had with with those which led me to founding BiggerPockets, was I You know, I didn't like the idea of getting caught up in this this funnel where, you know, it's like, hey, come to our free course and the free courses. Just an ad for a free boot camp. You know, some kind of boot camp, which is a nad for a course, which is an ad for, you know, training.

Welcome to the Big Exit where wediscuss startup acquisitions with the founders who lived it. Here's your host,Dan Dougherty But it gave me the time to really thinkabout life. And in that time I realized that I wasn't as happy as I wanted tobe running the business, that I went to my wife. Year eight of the company andI was in tears, and I realized that I was unhappy. So the operating manualwas, "How do I go from unhappy to happy" and I had spent so long not takingvacations, not taking days off. I worked eight years without a single dayoff, which is incredibly stupid. I mean, nights, weekends, you name it sevendays a week. Um, I realized that, like, that's not healthy. I didn't do a lot of that. You know, Ididn't want to share my feelings necessarily in those early yearsbecause I thought it was a sign of weakness. Today, I think it's a sign ofnecessity and strength. You know, if you're not spendingsignificant time everyday learning, you're not gonna grow, you're not gonnaget better. You're not gonna be competitive with other people acrossyour area of expertise. Um, and the platform itself, your business,whatever it is, is not gonna be able Thio blossom, You know, from a sheer depression manin the year before my exit in the year and a half before my exit, I had I hadnever had this before, but I had three, like, full on panic attacks. E thoughtI was having a heart attack. Life's too short, man like, don't don'tdo keep doing things that make you miserable, you know, don't keep doingthings that keep you super stressed out If if If that's the case, figure outwhat you need to do to change. Welcome to this episode of the big exit.I'm your host, Dan Daugherty. And today I have a good friends Josh dork in whois the founder and former CEO of Bigger Pockets. Josh, thank you for coming onthe show. Excited to be here, man. You know, I've got a lot of feedback fromthe listeners that said, Hey, big exits are great, but I noticed that a lot ofthe founders that you have interviewed have raised significant amount of money,and I immediately immediately thought of you because you've bootstrappedbigger pockets from I remember your your Washington Park house where we mettwo really? A multimillion dollar organization. And I'm excited to haveyou on board to really tell the story of how you went from zero to an exitwithout ever raising a single dime of outside capital. Well, if you put itthat way, it sounds pretty good. Yeah, Yeah, I I mean, you know, you want meto just take it from the beginning, or Yeah, let's start from the verybeginning. I remember you and I met It. Must have been you. What? When did youWhen did you found bigger pockets? Was 2009 44? Yeah. So it must have been 07Maybe that that that we connected and you and I were talking about, you know,you were thinking about buying different companies, and and we werejust chatting about that. That didn't dio that didn't go well for me, but, uh,but yeah, no, it's been, um it's been a very, very long journey. Um, you know,like like any entrepreneurial story, lots of ups, lots of downs. And, um,inevitably, um, you know, really struggled through those those difficulttimes. But, you know, I think the key was just persevering through those inorder to come out at the end. But, um,...

I I looked at the cycle as a multistagecycle. When I started bigger pockets, it was I was teaching special Ed. I wasteaching high school in Los Angeles. The company, by the way, is the largestreal estate investing media company and community out there. We, um we're allabout trying to help people build wealth, learn how to build wealththrough real estate investing. And so back in 04 I was living in Los Angeles,I was teaching special at high school, I bought a bunch of property, a zaresult of my brother encouraging me to do so. And, uh, you know, I thought Iwas a smart guy, was I went to college, you know, all these all these thingsand bought property thousands of miles away, which would would normally be achallenge. But I didn't really do my homework. And so what happened waslittle by little, I found myself running into some problems and I didn'tquite know how to deal with those problems. um, there were books, butlike, you know, the books were pretty general. They didn't really say, Whatdo you do when your tenant is stealing electricity from the building next door?What do you do when somebody is ripping the copper piping out of your vacantunit? You can't find that. And all that was out there were there werecommunities forums, but they were all kind of tied to or in cahoots with. Icall him the Gurus that get rich quick crowd. Um and you know, the the issue Ihad with with those which led me to founding bigger pockets, was I You know,I didn't like the idea of getting caught up in this this funnel where,you know, it's like, hey, come to our free course and the free courses. Justan ad for a free boot camp. You know, some kind of boot camp, which is a nadfor a course, which is an ad for, you know, training. And you know, by thetime you're done and you look up, you've just spent 50 $75,000 to trainwith Cem, you know, self anointed guru. And you know you've got nothing to showfor it A lot, you know, high failure rates and things like that s o. Ithought there had to be a better way. And so I, you know, on the side, nightsand weekends while teaching for the first two years, just started buildingthis platform. I taught myself how to code a number of years before back incollege and just started to run with it. And after about two years, I quit. Myquit my job teaching, and I went full time. I was alreadyworking 40 hours a week, at least on bigger pockets in those first two years.Uh, but but then I just went, you know, balls to the wall, so to speak. And,you know, it was doing 88 100 hours trying to trying to build this thingout. So first phase, I call it like that hobby phase. Second phase, youknow, was when I took it seriously, quit my job, really spent all my timeon it. And in that stage, I moved to Colorado. I'm working ridiculous hoursin my basement. I ended up meeting you, of course, uh, and and just kept keptgoing and going for six more years until I was ready to throw in the towel.There have been ups. There have been downs, but I got to this point where Ijust run myself ragged. Um, really, You know, stupidly worked way, way, way,way too hard. But I just got caught up in the details. I got caught up inevery little detail, and instead of working on the business, I was workingin the business exclusively. Came to be...

...ready to quit And, like, told my wife,Hey, I'm ready to sell the business. I was in tears. I was just miserable, um,or just shut it down. I was making money, but I was still ready, you know,that. Desperate to just get out. So I hired a consultant and he came in and we looked over thebusiness. And, you know, my my, uh my goal was to figure out how how do I getmyself? How do I change things? You know, how do I make it? So I couldeither scale this get to an exit or just, you know, sell it and quit and bedone and find something else. And so we spent weeks going through thebusiness, realized that we had, you know, created a product that was alittle overly bloated. There was, You know, we we built too much, too manyfutures. It wasn't simple enough. And, um, we ah, you know, we realized that Iwas doing everything which I was I was doing the job of, you know, 17different people and that had to stop to. So, you know, the decision was Do Iraise money? Uh, do I hire how doe I hire? What do I do? And the company wasprofitable. I was making money. I mean, I I literally started this company withthe, you know, like, 12 bucks a month. It cost me to host and whatever. 45bucks it cost to register the domain name back then. And that was it. I Ihadn't invested another penny in, Um, but, you know, we were living off thebusiness, and it was very scary to go and take on debt because I'm veryconservative financially, fiscally, and I didn't want I just didn't want to dothat. So we made the decision that we would start and hire one person whocould lighten the load for May. And, uh, in order to do that, we were gonna haveto penny pinch at home because my wife was not working. We had kids at thatpoint. And you know that we were we were living pretty tight on what wewere making where we were. As you know, Denver is not inexpensive. So, um,hired a hired a guy named Brandon Turner. Um, he, uh, some of youlistening may know him. He's still the co host of the Bigger Pockets podcast.But he came in and was instrumental, um, to advancing the business so thathigher I really believe the business went from Hobby Thio kind of this, uh, you know, call it mom and pop, you know,sole operator business. And then it became a company, and and very quicklyI had to learn how toe deal with employees, how to how to scale, um, andspent the next number of years doing that with Brandon as kind of my copilot. We launched amazing products like the podcast, which today still oneof the top 10 business shows in the world. I think it's one of the top 100podcast in the world. Give or take, Um, we launched the publishing business. Imean, you know, the company grew and grew. He will allow me to think aboutthe business from a holistic standpoint, strategic, and over time we grew. Wescaled. We hired dozens of people and come 2007 I went through this verydifficult personal time. One of my kids had a medical trauma that led Thio somereally scary stuff. Paralysis in in a nine year old, um, and I had Thio hadto step away, had to step away from the company in order to take care of myfamily. And between Brandon and Scott...

Trench, who was my second in command atthe business at the time, and my management team, you know, I cast thoseguys and gals Thio to run the business, and I had to focus on my family, and Ihad a lot of time, and in that time I realized that mhm, you know, after 14 years ofbuilding this company, man, I love I love, love, love, bigger pockets. But Iwas kind of burnt out. I was kind of tired. I was kind of ready for the nextthing. Um, you know, I felt like something needed to change for mepersonally. And, um And so, as as we were going through this this, uh,situation with my daughter, Little by little, she was getting better. Uh, she she went through somethingcalled conversion disorder, which, basically the brain kind of shuts thebody down. And, um, I'm very much oversimplifying it, but fast forward towhere we are today, and she's fully physically functional, like I mean, youwouldn't know the difference between her and any other kid. HorrifyingSkerry. I don't wish it on anyone to go through what we all went through, butit gave me the time to really think about life. And in that time, Irealized that I wasn't as happy as I wanted to be running the business. Um,so we went way hired investment bank. I mean, cutting a long story short. I'msure you're gonna have a ton of questions and sorry for ranting, but wehired the bank, went through a process, and, you know, 68 months later, um, Ihad an exit to a private equity company. Um, Still own a significant piece ofthe business. I'm on the board and, you know, continue to love bigger pockets.And I love how it's impacting people's lives. And, um, let's dive in. And Well,first off, I'm so happy that your daughter is healthy. Now, that is a Z.You know, I have two little ones of my own, and that is that changeseverything. Um, and I'm glad that you prioritize that over anything else. Youare also obviously bigger pockets continues to grow. Still the topeverything. The community of podcast. I still get a lot of my great informationfrom the community and the network. It sounds like I said, Okay, what am Igonna do next? And you are in Hawaii now, right? How long have you been inHawaii with the family? Eso. You know, we we've always wanted to come toHawaii. Always wanted toe kind of be here. Be I used to call bicoastal wouldbe like New York and Callie. We always wanted to be, you know, in Hawaii inColorado. But Covert hit and we got sick in March,and it was, you know, it was tough on, but I was very, very, very sick. um itwas a very unpleasant experience. Very scary again. You know, I was fairlyuncertain. I would get through it. I got through it. Thank goodness. Um, Andagain, it was another one of those moments for us. We were like, you know,what are we doing? There's a lot of, you know, Colorado just, you know,still a lot of chaos, you know, there's just Yeah. I mean, it's everywhere,right? The political upheaval, the cove, it chaos. Um, we just wanted to find aplace where we could dio where we we could just normalize our lives where mykids could, you know, get up and not be all stressed out where, um, you know,we we knew that the government was doing a lot Thio mitigate the situation.And, um so we said, Hey, why not? Let's...

...just do it. We came to Hawaii. We'vebeen here since July. Um, it's fabulous. You know, we were not residents yet.You know, we're doing our trial balloon now, so to speak, but it's it'sfantastic. And look, we get to go and, you know, go out on the beach and notbe near people. And you know the kids come to go out and do physical stuff. Imean, we were able to do that in Colorado, but, you know, you're on atrail your, you know, running across people without mass. You know, it'sjust the, you know, the whole debate. We're not going to get into it. Buteither way it Ah, you know, it presented an opportunity for us toe tofind some kind of to find some peace and, uh, to find a place whereeverybody just could feel good because man 2020 nobody feels good anymore. Man,we don't feel good anymore, and and everybody's at each other's throats andstressed and tense and and it Z, it's not healthy for any of us, It really isnot. And, you know, we're in a position where we have an opportunity to dosomething like this, like, do it. Let's do it, you know, you know, you can workremote. You can do everything remote these days. Ah, lot of people can atleast, um and, uh yeah, so we're here, and I'm you know, I'm trying to figureout what's next. You know, looking, looking at ideas. And, you know, I'vebeen been investing, you know, since my exit and different things looking forfor, um, you know, startups Thio get involved with looking for boards tobecome a part of looking to advise. I've been advising some small companieskind of off the books. Um, but, you know, looking Thio make that a littlemore official. And but yeah, that's that's what I've been up Thio. But yeah,what else you got? Where else can we dive into this? You know, as you as youwere talking, Um, all of the significant life changing moments thatoccur not just in your life, but and just in our own individual lives tendsto be even if it's really, really bad or really, really good. It tends to bea catalyst for something even bigger and not all the time. But even fromlistening to you, it sounds like different things that happened withinyour life. Um, almost had a purpose or a reason that got you to where you aretoday. And I i right across the blawg and they talked about they called itserendipitous mindset where you leave your mind open and as you see thesedifferent things that happened to you serendipitously, whether it's thepeople that you have met five years ago, just like how you and I met many, manyyears back, um, some people don't see that. It's almost like when you whenyou get a new car and then you start seeing other similar car, same colornever saw before. Um, have you had additional clarity from just taking astep back? And I mean, even when Brandon was was hired, it sounds likeyou were able to take a step back. Look at a much bigger strategic view. Andfrom a business perspective that accelerated growth from a lifeexperience, it sounds like you're doing the same thing. You're you'reoperationalize ing, um, your life and that has allowed you to kind of be moreopen. Is that true? Is that a good statement to say Absolutely, Absolutely.Yeah. You know, I think another way of saying is, you know, putting yourselfin a position to dot, dot, dot and and so I think for a very long time I ranmy life, you know, moment to moment. And, you know, through conversationswith folks like Brandon, you know, lots...

...of I've got some good friends who thinkreally deeply, um to reading. Ah, lot reading a lot listening, Thio, um youknow, thought leaders in various spaces, You know, my transformation, Really, Ithink began from the moment of, uh that, uh, that I went to my wife year eightof the company and I was in tears, and I realized that I was unhappy. So theoperating manual was how do I go from unhappy, Too happy. And and that was itbecame not just like a question, but it became a significant force within mylife, whether it's about, you know, journaling about it, contemplating it,talking about it out loud and making decisions around it. And and so, forexample, one of the core values that bigger pockets is family above all else.For me, I realized that if I'm going to run this company, I've got these kidsthat I love and my wife and and I had spent so long not taking vacations, nottaking days off, I worked eight years without a single day off, which isincredibly stupid. I mean, nights, weekends, you name it seven days a week. I realized that, like, that's nothealthy. You know it's healthy to be balance. It's healthy Thio to spendtime down with downtime Its's on DSO, you know, try to create operatingmanuals around that. You know, eventually that became like myWednesdays, you know, in the you call it year and a half leading Thio theexit My Wednesdays. I didn't go in tow. Work Wednesday was about thinking,networking and not doing that was all I was allowed to do on Wednesday. Ididn't take calls. I didn't. You know, if there's emergencies, you deal withit. But like that was that was what that day was about. And and so, ah, thinking about the things you gothrough. Look, we all go through good stuff, and we all go through bad stuff,and I've I've given two examples of bad things I've been through. I've beenthrough a lot, you know, some pretty bad things on top of that, Um, and Ithink the way you live your life and your happiness is gonna be determinedby your outlook on that. And for me, the outlook is I'm not gonna let thesethings dominate me. They're not going to define me. I'm gonna allow them.Thio, like you say Thio become some kind of catalyst and and so within thebusiness itself, you know? Hey, I mean, you used to work at Google. You know,as a media company, Google would change. Your Google changes their algorithmsall the time as a as an example, right? Yeah, we'll be doing great getting, youknow, x million views for month on, you know, through through search. And allof a sudden, Google will make an algorithm change, and that will drop20% or 30%. And so you can freak out and flip out. Or you could say, Allright, you know what? They made this tweak. What could we do? Better? How dowe do this better than everybody else? You know, we can't ignore s CEO. Wecan't ignore these things. How do we make a change? Change the way weoperate the business so that we so that Google's algorithm changes become lessof a significant impact on who we are and what we dio and so that ultimatelyled Thio diversification of the business that, you know, we startedproducing video. We created podcast recreated books. You know, we wanted tobe where the listeners on viewers were versus thinking, Hey, they're going tocome to us. Um, so, you know, being willing and open Thio Thio change andbeing dynamic, I think it is one of the...

...most important things. Um and you know,So I've I take those moments when they come tome and and I try and take bold steps when they come Yeah, there's, umthere's no shortage of chaos in It's the start up world. Um, and those thatcannot adapt to change will inevitably fail and close shop. This happens sooften, where and you mentioned it Is that the S e o algorithm? Is it? It'salmost like your manic because one day you just closed a really large client.You're all celebrating. And then the next day, all of your servers crashAndi and you have that almost daily and you have to have that type of growthmindset. Um um, serendipitous mindset. But you also need to understand who youare. And really, quite frankly, I did not do a good job of understanding, Um,when I'm depressed or who to call? Um, if I if I'm depressed, I kind of justglazed over it and just put my head down in the work. So I didn't feeldepressed anymore, and that ended up. It's probably like your eight years ofgrind that is not healthy at all. Did you feel? I mean, I'm sure you havelots of times where you just wanted to quit or or pushed through. But did youWere you ever really depressed at all? Absolutely. I mean I mean, you know,would somebody have diagnosed me with clinical depression? I doubt it. It'sunlikely, but yeah, I mean, there were they were down periods, dark periods. Imean, you know, super super stressful periods. Yeah. I mean, the very firstearly years, you know, I had very little support outside of my wife, Youknow, that this was not like something that everybody's like. Oh, this isgonna be the greatest thing since sliced bread, you know? I mean, I wentup against tremendous opposition, you know, I was in an industry where therewere entrenched interests that wanted me destroyed from from the get go. Andmy idea, you know, was one where you know, VCs and angels Thought it didn'thave a chance. And And I had just swarms of competitors coming out of thewoodwork trying to take me down. And and so there was threat everywhere,right? There's threat everywhere, and and so, yeah, that's that becomesstressful in particularly, I think the most stressful part was I was by myselfto your point. I didn't have a co founder. I didn't have any partners. Um,and, uh, most people I didn't know really any anyone who I had very fewfriends. You, Scott Yates. Um, some other guys who, you know, we'recreating companies locally that I knew that I could talk Thio, But, you know,I didn't do a lot of that. You know, I didn't want to share my feelingsnecessarily in those early years because I thought it was a sign ofweakness. Today, I think it's a sign of necessity and strength, um, to be selfaware enough to know, Um but I think from a mindset perspective, you reallyI think if you have a learning a mindset, a mindset where hey, I alwayswanna learn. I always want to get better. Um, whether it's in business,you know, I wanna be a better CEO. I wanna learn how to become a CEO. So Iwent read lots of books on it. You know,...

I wanna learn how to be happy. So Iread about happiness, right? I wanna I listened to experts on it. Um, uh, youknow, part of my job, and and one of the things that that I pressed upon mystaff was, You know, if you're not spending significant time everydaylearning, you're not going to grow, you're not gonna get better. You're notgonna be competitive with other people across your area of expertise. Um, andthe platform itself, your business, whatever it is is not gonna be able toblossom. And and so I think that mindset is exceptionally important. Um,but, you know, from a sheer depression man, in the year before my exit in theyear and a half before my exit, I had I had never had this before, but I hadthree, like, full on panic attacks. E I thought I was having a heart attack. Um,horrifyingly scary where I was in in the office and I broke down and justYeah, I was in tears. You know, I couldn't breathe You know, I didn'tknow if I needed to take a ambulance, the hospital, Um, in all three cases,my wife was able to kind of talk me down and call me and, um, you know, Butit was like, you know, stress, right stress. And I think we humans justinternalize so maney things and create somebody threats. And there's got to bethere's got to be a better way. And and so what? I tell what I tell my friendsand just people that, you know, if I ever I'm speaking, um is, you know, yougot to take care of your first yourself first life life is short. You know, Youdon't know what can happen tomorrow. Uh, cove it, you know, your kid gets sick.I mean, whatever it is and life's too short, man like, don't don't do keepdoing things that make you miserable, you know, don't keep doing things thatkeep you super stressed out. If if that's the case, figure out what youneed to do to change. And the big challenge I think most people have isthat's so big and continuous. Like, what do I dio? I don't know. And and mymy quick advice on that is this. And this is what this is absolutely workedfor me over and again may not work for you, but it's definitely work for me. Imake a list of everything that's stressing me out. All the stressors, um,from from big to small, and then I start to knock him off. Um, and it'sinteresting, you know, as you and a stressor might be. I come in every dayand I look at emails for three or four hours, and I'm stuck in email. Well,then you need to figure out a system how to stop being responsive to youremail and be proactive because you're not running your business. Your emailis running you right, Um, so you know, whether it's that or hey, I'm stressedabout money. Well, you know, you gotta then go on, break down your budget andyou've got to figure out why you're stressed about money. Where youspending all your money. You know, what are you doing and deal with thatsituation? But it's so easy for for us toe try and ignore things and hope theygo away. But the problem is none of this goes away problems don't go away.You've got to deal with them. And so once you start tackling them, um, it'samazing how your load gets lighter and lighter and lighter. Right. So thereyou go, right? No, very few people do exactly what you just said, Andi, andthat's actually something that I do as well. I break it out and that goes intothio do list. Um, and anything that's stressing me out, you have sort of youhave to dissect it and then figure out what the root causes on that opens upeverything else. Because then you figure out ways again. I use the termoperationalize It is because then it allows you to leverage different tools.Maybe you have to delegate mawr. Maybe you want to respond within an hour ofevery single email that comes in,...

...whatever it might be, I've used thattechnique and that has helped me dramatically. Yeah, Yeah, I think Ithink for me the book, The one thing by Gary Keller and J. Papa's On was one ofthe most impactful and just, you know, helping me kind of break things down.Um, it's fantastic. I recommend it to everyone. Um, but yeah, Just findingdifferent ways. Thio Thio. Uh huh. Thio tweet the way you're doing things,right? If you if What? You're doing it personally with your family and andI've I've also done that. So I've got a book journal where I've literallybroken my life down into segments physical fitness, health. I separatethem physical fitness and health, business and work. Wife and love, uh,my kids on. Do you know, some people may put faith in there, whatever it is.And then I go through and I'm like, All right, where my crappy and each one ofthese things where my good in each of these things, where one of the thingsthat I need to do to be better within all these personal domains. Um, andthen I start knocking him out. Hey, I got to get you know, I've been eatinglike crap, you know, £20 overweight. Cool. Well, what do you need to do tochange that? You need to change your diet. You need to do some exercise. Butyou know, if anybody who tries to grasp these things, they're so big and scary.Well, then break it down into little steps. And so that's what I do in mybook. And I literally will break all these mega tasks into little microsteps. You know, with the health, for example, instead of like, hey, I needto lose weight. It's instead of drinking soda and orange juice and, youknow, coffees and energy drinks. I just going to drink water because water ishealthy. You water cleanses you water does this. You know that's not that biga step cool, you know? And you move from from drinks toe water. You youstart losing weight. I need to move more cool. You know what? I'm gonna geta fitness watch, and I'm gonna walk 10,000 steps a day. You know, that'sit's, surprisingly, a significant boost to your health, right? And notdifficult. And for me in that period, you know what I realized? I wanted tobe healthier for examples, And by the way, I didn't have to lose weight. Asyou know, I'm like a scrawny dude, so I want the opposite. Um, but I wanted tobe healthier. So what I started doing, I was I was spending hours and hours onthe phone every day constantly. That's part of my job. Right? But instead ofsitting in my office talking on the phone, every phone call that I had wasa walking call. I put on my headset and I'd walk around the neighborhood. Um, Ieasily got my 10,000 steps. I easily felt better. Um, you know, I got astanding desk instead of a sitting desk, you know? Then I started to add one onone meetings. You know, when I had one on one meetings instead of doing get arestaurant or coffee or or sitting down in the office, they would be walkingmeetings. Um, you know, these little things allowed me to continue to work,do my job and stay healthy at the exact same time. Cool. Not a magic formula.Um, but I've broken kind of everything in my life, down in these terms, andit's made it. So I'm a hell of a lot happier. You know, I'm not withoutstress and headaches, but, you know, I now have a formula. And how do I getrid of that? Oh, I love that. Uh, one final question is this going to be isjust the the prelude to a book Man s Oh, I've I've started and stoppedthe book probably 50 times. I don't know, maybe maybe if I get someencouragement from my friends, I'll do...

...it. But you know, there's so many booksout there, there's there's There's so much I don't know. You know, I Icertainly have my own unique and distinct perspective like anyone else.And I suppose if I had enough people saying, Yeah, Josh, you should do itfor sure I might I might jump at it, but I'm not currently on it. But I'vedefinitely drafted an outline. And, you know, I've you know, when I get backinto it, you know, occasionally, Um, I give it a kick start. But, you know,I've written a book before with Brandon, um, on real estate eso I know how to doit. I just I don't know. I'm tor eso. So give me Give me the motivation andI'll get out there and dio e just might well, offline. Let's let's catch up.Because maybe there's something we could do together. Um, but this wasawesome. Josh, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for the storiesand the insights and the tips. I really enjoyed the conversation. No, thanks,man. I appreciate it. And hopefully, you know, hopefully somebody listening.Take something away from it. I, you know, entrepreneurship is, uh it'schallenging. It's really it's really, really tough. But just know thatthere's there's guys out there like me and Dan and, you know, countless otherpeople who have tried it, who've been through it. And, um, you know, I thinkthere's there's a lot of people who are willing to be helpful. Um, you know,seek out advisors in your field, Um, and, you know, work towards it. And Iguess, you know, if you don't mind, I thrown me throwing this in there. Youknow, if you raise money or if you bootstrap,you know, it's fighting for exit is, I think, oneway to run a business. I think the other way to run a business is, youknow, fighting to create an amazing business. And I think far too manypeople get caught up in that Well, you know, I'm gonna build a business to getto an exit. Um, and what happens inevitably, And I think you and I'veseen this countless times. You know, you raise the money and now you havebosses and those bosses or telling you how to run the business. And now youdon't get to run the business the way that you actually thought you weregoing to run the business. Because you have bosses and you're not working foryourself anymore. And so you know, it's a serious decision to raise moneyor not to raise money, and I it could be significantly helpful. But I want topress upon anybody who's who's thinking about it. T Just recognize that it'snot something to take lightly. You know, Not only are you raising money frompeople who now you, um you know, you don't wanna lose anyone's money, butalso, just in terms of mindset, um, you know that there's the freedom that youthink you're gonna have may not necessarily be there and and from abootstrap perspective, Yeah, bootstrapping, you have a lot lesssupport than you do when you raise money. Uh, but, you know, getting toexit, getting close to the finish line, so to speak, is an absolutelyincredible feeling. And I wish it upon. You know, all the entrepreneurs outthere. Um, just just work. Keep working, be dynamic pivot And you know Ah, lotof luck out there. Well said, Thank you so much, Josh. Iwant toe. Have you on again? Absolutely. You let me know We'll do it whenever.All right. Thanks, Josh. By.

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