The Big Exit
The Big Exit

Episode 5 · 1 year ago

Chris Onan on Being the Reluctant Co-Founder and Selling for $165MM


Chris Onan sat down with Dan Daugherty to discuss what it took to build a multi-million dollar Denver based company that eventually led to a $165MM all cash acquisition deal with K12, Inc. Chris also talks about raising money and investing in other startups.

Sample Transcript:


Welcome to The Big Exit, where we discussed startup acquisitions with the founders who lived it. Here's your host, Dan Daugherty.

Dan Daugherty

Welcome to this episode of the big exit. Today, I have Chris Onan, a good friend, entrepreneur, and one of the co-founders of Galvanize that earlier this year sold for $165 million. Chris, it is so awesome to have you on the show.

Chris Onan

Well, thanks for having me, man.

Dan Daugherty

Let's get started by giving our listeners a brief overview of what Galvanize is and why you guys came together, really almost a decade ago to start it.

Chris Onan

Yeah, I want to say it was first quarter of 2012. So gosh, eight years. That's crazy. Um, Galvanize, fundamentally at the core was an education business. You know, we looked at the problems that tech companies we're just having trouble finding tech talent or enough of it, and particularly in Colorado. And we said, Look, there's gotta be a better way to do this. And Eric Mitisek called me one day and said, Hey, I got these two guys and they're working on something, but they need you and that was really where it started.

I met my co founders over a couple glasses of wine up at the Venture Capital Rockies Conference. Something Way is a venture capital community used to hold in kind of Denver Boulder because we couldn't find investors from the coast come and look at deals in Colorado. Well, that's changed. That conference outlived itself and now more investors love coming to Colorado. I met my two co-founders and I was like, Whoa, that's a lot. Because at the time it think It was really focused on being a real estate play, and I'm trying to raise a fund, and I just said, "Hey, have fun storming the castle guys, that's just way too complicated."

And one of my co-founders called me a couple days later and said, "Hey, look, you know, we haven't figured it all out. Why don't you help us? What's the downside?" And I was like, don't use logic on me. It works. And so I just started kind of banging on it started tweaking it. I was the reluctant co-founder. It was. It was a little bit like the girl you're dating that you don't want your friends to know about. And then six months later, you know, you're like in a relationship that's a little bit like that.

Welcome to the big accent, where wediscussed startup acquisitions with the founders who lived in Here's your host,Dan Daugherty. We had, like, a 10 companies move inthe first kind of day, and we're all standing around eating pizza oneafternoon and the floors are wet and it's dark. And I'm just like, man, isthis gonna work? I couldn't just be a real estate place.Toe work had to be an enriching community that was focused onentrepreneurship and tax and gross. And we had some amazing people believein us and bet us really early and probably. Yeah, well, maybe a littleearly for them to bet on us. But we were very fortunate. I mean, I think it was pretty much fiveyears of shooter. Welcome, Teoh. This episode of the bigexit today I have Chris owning a good friend, entrepreneur and one of the cofounders of Galvanize That earlier this year sold for 165 million. Chris, it isso awesome to have you on the show. Well, thanks for having me, man. Let's get started by giving ourlisteners a brief overview of what galvanize is and why you guys cametogether really almost a decade ago to start it. Yeah, I want to say it wasfirst quarter of 2012. So gosh, eight years. That's crazy. Um, galvanize,Fundamentally at the core was an education business. You know, we lookedat the problems that tech companies was my construct, that we're just havingtrouble finding tech talent or enough of it, and particularly in Colorado on.And we said, Look, there's gotta be a better way to do this. And Eric Matissesick called me one day and said, Hey, I got these two guys and they're workingon something, but they need you And that was really where it started. I metmy co founders over Got couple glasses of wine up the venture capital IraqisConference. Something Way is a venture capital community used to hold in inkind of Denver Boulder because we couldn't find investors from a coastcome and look at deals in Colorado. Well, that's changed. That conferenceoutlived itself is not necessarily more investors love coming to Colorado, andI met my two co founders and I was like, Whoa, that's a lot because at the timeI think It was really focused on being a real estate play, and I'm trying toraise a fund and then maybe also do. Some suffered overtraining, and I just said, Hey, have have funstorming the castle guys, let's just way too complicated. And one of my cofounders called me a couple days later said, Hey, look, you know, we haven'tfigured it all out. You know? Why don't you help us? What's the downside? And Iwas like, Don't use logic on me. It works. And so I just started kind ofbanging on it on DWI, started revving it and tweaking it. I was the reluctantco founder. It was. It was a little bit like the girl you're dating that youdon't want your friends to know about me. And then six months later, you know,you're you're like in a relationship that's a little bit like that. Um, andit was It was kind of a three month process, you know, where we were justkind of white boarding and kind of grinding, and we basically decided, Hey,let's flip real estate on its head If you think about, you know, for ah, highgrowth business if you have to sign a lease for a fixed amount of squarefootage for a fixed charm two years, three years, five years. It's not onlynot helpful because, ah, hydro startup is either gonna grow fast or shrinkfast one of the two. But it's not going to stay the same in most cases, and ifit is staying the same, that is generally not working out. And so thekind of classic real estate model is not only not helpful for entrepreneurs,it's perfectly orthogonal. And that was why we said, Look, no leases, nocontingent liabilities if your company's growing and you want morespace inside a galvanized campus. Awesome. If your company is shrinkingand you want to go back to the garage and just come for events and come tofind students and mentor wonderful, it...

...really was. The ethos was set up tomake life difficult for commercial real estate owners and make life better forentrepreneurs and operators. And the key, the key way that was gonna happenwas providing these young and growing companies with access to tech talentbecause if if you're Google or send Druitt or Ping identity and you havemoney for the free lunches and the massages and all that stuff, you canattract better talent. And this and the start up companies that are smallerreally needed to find more junior talent. What's that line from theUntouchables? Mori says. You don't you don't go to the tree. You don't go tothe barrel, you go to the tree. Yeah, that was a little bit of the thesis ofputting software Topol training at the core of Galvanize because that thatthat educated kind of workforce that was coming out of the Galvani sufferedopen programs was enriching the surrounding community. And then wealways wanted to have a small seed fund to investment. Things that bubbled upfrom the campus is either people who came for events or companies over doingwhile our students, in some cases who left and started something, and it tookus a little while to longer to make that happen. We opened the first campusin Denver, 30,000 square foot building. People told us we were insane. Itwasn't really even ready to be open in September of 12 for number started week,but we opened anyway, and we hosted a ton of the kickoff events of the bigparties and, uh, on I want to say we had, like, a 10 companies move in thefirst kind of day, and we're all standing around eating pizza oneafternoon and the floors are wet and it's dark. And I was like, Man, this isgonna work. And it was one of those, like check yourself moments and then,you know, on January 24th of 2013. So 34 months later, we had our firstsuffered over cohort of 24 students start in the night before. I was likean expectant father. I was basically Are they gonna show up for the classtomorrow? Because because if they don't show up, we have empty spots. You knowthe planes already taken off. You can't have people join midstream there latebecause the paces of learning is so fast. And it was really kind of amagical day. Galvanized history when those 24 students showed up and theenergy in the classroom and we hosted a cocktail party. I can't refuse thatfirst night or or that week with the surrounding community members, and youprobably remember this and the energy of having the students who were thereto learn and want to access this amazing tech world and entrepreneurship.We're surrounded by all the companies that were doing exactly that, right?And if you remember, we had your company, we had uber's. Uber's Coloradoheadquarters was in the offices. I mean, it was just a, you know, KevinMcInerney's company, Active junkie. I mean, it was really It was just areally crazy fun vibe. And as we looked around at the cocktail party and saw itwas happening, you know, I think the three of us who started galvanized like,uh, we were onto something. No, Uh, that's Ah, you know, I remember.Precisely even before that time, you gave me a hard hat and we walked aroundthat facility. The first facility that you had, I think it was off a Delaware.Yeah, I'm pretty sure Lisa thought we recruited Lisa. Thought you were crazy.Uh, but I just saw the vision of what you guys were doing from that veryearly stage, and I knew there was something there. It's funny how gettingthe perspective from you once it launched was it going to be successful.And then once you started getting all these great companies in and even thestudents that started, I mean, it was you guys were building a community thatwas sober, vibrant even from the very beginning. That was, for me the turningpoint while these guys were to be really successful. Yeah. I mean, Ithink people people bet on us early like you and Lisa bet on us early withRep. It's and Doug Llewellyn, who was...

...running Manta and which was a reallybig company in Ohio, that he was running it of Colorado's. That's wherehe lived. Kevin and Dani from Active junkie will from uber the Gush, DannyNeumann's company proximity. And we had a lot of early community, mediumcommunity members just basically say we're gonna we're gonna do this, we'regonna be a part of this. And we also had one of the things that we did early.It was we couldn't just be a real estate placetoe work and had to be an enriching community that was focused onentrepreneurship and tack and growth. And so one of the things we did is weasked people like Joe Zeller grow tech ventures, Luke, baby, multiple timesserial entrepreneur Andre Durand to be mentors and come and hold office hoursfor the community. And people did that in droves. It got to be You got to besuch a thing that people would reach out cold and ask if they could come andbe mentors. And we had to kind of say, Now we had to curate it because we wedidn't want people Huck and services. What we really wanted was seasonedentrepreneurs and investors and operators and angel investors coming in,being a part of the galvanized community is great, but we benefitedone. It was the right time, right? Denver was kind of ready forentrepreneurship to really start to be recognized and enriched. I mean, Denverstarted. Was was first year demo started. Week was the first year westarted galvanized, so kind of perfect timing. You know what Ben Data and EricMatisse, sick and Tammy Door have done with number started? Week is nothingshort of incredible that he gets the largest free entrepreneurial event inNorth America, and they just start of it in 2012. And I believe it's gonna beall virtual this year, But kudos to them. And I think Calvin has reallybenefitted from that tailwind. And I think the entrepreneurs and theinvestors in town, we're ready to have more of a sense of community. And itwas crazy how many people were like, Yeah, cool. I think we're in. We'regonna be a part of this now. And I would I would be like, really you are.That was I was always surprised when companies like yours were like, No, no,no. We're gonna anchor down this place. We're going to do this. And it was veryit was awesome. People were so good to us. And, you know, I remember GregBecker, who is the CEO of silicon by bank, came and checked out the firstgalvanize campus on Delaware. You know, maybe 34 months before we opened. JoshDorsey, who ended up being our banker, brought him and Becker walk through andheard the pitch. And he goes, Yeah, were in. What do you need from us? AndI was like, Really? That's great, Totally stunned. It was awesome. There's a There's a lot of those ah,experiences that we had not prior prior to galvanize you were you were deep inin venture capital. So So you had the timing that you just mentioned. You hadthe team, and then obviously, this was a pretty, um, capital intensive venturethat you guys then went on to raise additional funds. Correct. Yeah, I know.You're absolute right. Fundraising was a huge part of my life for theapproximately five years that I was a galvanized and just with, you know, Ihad been with three or four different venture funds and probably invested atthe time, maybe invested in 100 some companies, But a recurring theme keptcoming up when I was on a board when I was observer. You know, CEOs were morethan happy to have me help them with work, you know, if they needed study onit. Okay. What what member of my team should have? What percentage of options?What would commercial real estate broker should we hire defined space?You know, if you re willing to do that, that would work. CEOs was about timewith you, but when it came to like, strategic advice, I probably had CEOstold me. Well, you never really done it you have been an entrepreneur. You havebeen an operator. So you don't really know, you know, because I've reallyjust been a consultant than an investor, which probably means I hadn't reallycreated any GDP in my career. Um, and and again, you know, the theopportunity to be part of, you know, the founding team that galvanized waswas a chance to give that a try and see if I had the chops toe be an operator.And now, in my post galvanized career,...

I think CEOs are a little more willingto listen to me because of what happened to galvanize. But back to yourquestion. I think you were asking a capital. Yeah, I know. We galvanize wasa big swing, even from the early days. And capital raising was like job Juan.And I think in my time, a galvanized, ultimate raised 60 or 70 million incapital. Um, and the 1st 20 to 30 million of that was a family office andangel capitals, and we had some amazing people believe in us and bet on usreally early and probably Yeah, you know, we were maybe a little early forthem to that honest, but we were very fortunate. I am What, as it turned out,I loved fundraising. It was probably my favorite thing. So that was one of your favorite things.What was one of the least favorite things of starting a company in runninga company? I mean, I think it was pretty much five years of shooter way.We're never within, like, you know, 60 days of running out of money. But Iwould say we were constantly somewhere between 90 and 100 and 50 days ofrunning out of money. And so it was you for five years for five years. And thenthen And that's what ultimately led to me deciding it was time to go. I was.In August of 2016 we closed a $45 million series, be led by a B S capital,Parker's and has had a bulletproof balance sheet. And I felt good aboutthe team, and I could kind of gracefully depart and have a more sanepace of life and then not have all those angels and family offices thatcame in early. Be pissed that I left the company in the lurch, and a lot ofthose people that came in early. Uh, you know, I still work with, you know,on things today and continue to appreciate their support. Nearly does.It was your cap table a mess or consolidated lettuce? I think differentperspectives from different folks are Syria's. A lead would say it was messy.He made a comment means like, whoa, raising a retail, you know, kind oftaking taking a dig because he was in New York. Money. Yeah, who ended uploving and working really closely with for years. To this day, we worktogether. Um, but I didn't think it was that bad. We probably had a third ofyour 40 folks on the cap table, so I didn't think it was. I don't think itwas absurd, but it certainly could have been cleaner. So you laughed, but youstill had an active role. Are you still on the board? I wasn't on the boat. Iwasn't on the was on the board, but I had a good active dialogue with theSiri's a lead, Daniel Bianco from University Ventures and the Siri's belead pulmonary Ani for maybe s Capital partners. And if they ever needed myhelp when that happened? A lot. After my after I left, I was more than happyto help them. When when did you guys decide to potentially sell the company? What wasit? Was it a while ago? Was it was it? You know, six months ago, prior to theacquisition was there was it was always on your mind. You know, it was prettyclear to me when the board brought in Carl Meyer to be executive chairman andthen promoted Harsh Patel, who had who had been see of Hacker Act, whichreally good business based in San Francisco. The Galvanized acquired, Ithink, galvanized acquired hacker actor in Gosh, I think probably I think thatclosed in the summer of 2018 that they were getting the businessready to sell. Karl has a long history of coming in late stages of businessesand providing riel professionalism to set things up for an acquisition. And Ithink it probably happened sooner than the board. And Carl thought becausethere was inbound interest, Carl and Harsh and Team had done a nice jobimproving the unit economics and the fundamentals and K 12 education camealong. I think you made him an offer that they they said, Hey, we have toe,we have to do this and that That decision was obviously handled at theboard level by the preferred investors. Um, but I think ultimately greatoutcome, particularly with the benefit of hindsight of what's happened here.In 2020 right? The face price was 165 million in cash. There are some otherthings that make that a bigger number. And look, you know, the galvanizedboard made the best decision they could... the time. K 12 stock is up three xsince January of of this year, largely because they have a distance learningcomponent What they do. And so I'm not throwing rocks at the galvanized board.I think they made a good decision, but, gosh, if they'd taken stock, it's afive or $600 million exit, which is, you know, that's a that's a really bigone in Colorado. Let's talk about that briefly so some entrepreneurs will belucky enough to get a term sheet or potentially be acquired, and thatquestion usually comes up. Should I take all cash, take all stock? Should Itake some can. Now I'm starting or earn out. Right? Um, what would yourecommend to entrepreneurs that are lucky enough to be in that position?Every situation is a little different, and it really depends on the acquirer,Right? There were definitely some rumblings in the early days that wework. Wanted to try to acquire, galvanize and use their paper. You knowtheir stock to do so based on the timing that it probably still would'veworked out. But we just didn't We didn't like that business. Coworking isa stand alone wasn't something that got us excited. We liked the kind ofmembership component for tech companies because it enrich student experiencethat we end. That's why it was such an important part of the community. And soevery situation is a little bit different. Um, I'm trying to think of arecent acquisition here. Look, Brand folder was just acquired and smartsheets really hot. Seattle based company that's public came along andoffered a mix of cash and stock, and my guess is that Luke and his forwarddecided they wanted some stock because they believed in what smart sheets wasdoing, and they probably did a lot of diligence and drilled in the financialsand bookings and said, Hey, you know, we're not gonna take it all in stockbut we'll take a third. It would be my guess in stock so that they could ridethat a little bit further. Plus that I think they believe in Britain thatbrand folders gonna continue to grow inside smart sheets you're Maybethere's a situation where it's a really slow growth kind of mainline industrycompany has been around for 20 years, and when they come to acquire, youprobably want to take all cash, and it's it's really evaluating, you know.And then there's also the personal situation of the founders and theinvestors who were gonna receive the bulk of proceeds, Right? If you're Ifyou're in a good situation and you want to swing for the fences, then maybe youride more stock. If you If you want to have the personal balance sheetapologize to your spouse or significant of it for the past 5 to 10 years ofHarper can neglect, then then then you maybe you take more cash, right? Did. Ah, it's kind of funny thatyou mentioned smart smart sheets in it. Must have been February for my 41stbirthday. Um, my wife Robyn, of course. You know, she sent me out to Vegas andI was playing blackjack. And next to me is Mark Maitre, who is one of thefounders and the CEO of SMARTSHEET. And we just started talking. And, of course,Luke who you and I know well, a Z just mentioned I think they sold 100. Ithink it was 100 and 10 million, maybe more, but that that was just announcingthree 155 months. Really nice deal. I don't think thereis a 10 a capital, so it's highly efficient, which is so, Luke. Strategymeans a hell of an operator in an investor and entrepreneur. It's a goodstory because he also sold associated contentto. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I know that was a deal that I tried toget into, but I was late and it didn't happen. I'm always bummed about that. What are your biggest regrets as itrelates to, uh, investing in companies like deals that I missed out on? Yeah,man, all birth. That was one that Nick...

Lyman on our Galvanize Venture fundteam found I think it was the summer of 15 and we're out in San Francisco andwe were doing like, a strategic offsite after a board meeting. And I had, like,these horrific stomach pains ended up going to the hospital, getting an m r Iand all this stuff, and I basically came back and I was like, Okay, I'mprobably well enough to go meet everybody at the bar and have a drink,and Nick introduces me to this guy who's got this shoe that's made out ofthis bullets all cool. And I'm just like, yeah, I can't process is rightnow basically is like a nice meeting. I'm gonna come back to the hotel andtake a nap, and you know, we never did that deal, and that was a huge mistake.So kudos to Nick for finding it now. And I believe you were really anuber that through. I can't claim full credit for that. Where I was early wasChris Coggins, Tim Connor and I made a small investment in David Cone's forSeed Fund, which at the time was called bullet time Ventures. Now it'sTechstars Ventures. But I think David raised five million bucks from you know,people in the community who who were in and around tech and Techstars. And, youknow, we put a little Elsie together and gushing to that end up being aheroic investment because you send rid twilio uber and there's there's acouple more in there that are just monsters. It's just a It's an amazingvehicle. So kudos to David Cohen and it was It was fun just to be able tofollow the uber story and have ah and have ah dog in this light. If you could guess what was thatoriginal, would you say three million or five million? What do you thinkthat's within two o the investment in number? Yes, uber probably send youflying. Say this in a way that doesn't give away confidential stuff. I thinkyou know, I think it was like a $5 million vehicle, and I would bet youthat on a multiple of capital, it's one of the top 10 best performing funds inhistory. So fantastic. Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. I don't think David getsenough credit for how good he is. investing because he's he doesn't Hedoesn't publicly disclose a ton about about the returns, but it's prettyimpressive. You know what? Let me put it this way. It was It was a smallinvestment at a time, and it became much less small. What is a good success rate for thesein terms of percentage of deals that win or like on a combined basis? What?Because there's a few different ways to look at that. Let's look at it from a percentage ofdeals within the portfolio that that gay never let me. Let me answer itslightly differently. They're different. They're different types of investors atdifferent stages. And your angel seed investors. It's probably less aboutwhat percentage return capital. Because he if you're playing angel seed, Returnof capital is not answering. Two X is not interesting. You really need tohave one in there. That's like a 30 50 or 100 X type deal. If you're in theseed Angel World. If you're a series A maybe maybe you want half the deals toproduce returning. You want you know one of them to be a 20 to 30 X growthequity investors. You know, underwrite to a three X and hope for five, andthey assume that 80% are gonna deliver that. So they're kind of, you know,it's much more your mood, your private equity. But you're moving that waywhere it's all about show me demonstrated track record and he'sgonna turn the crank and I'm gonna get us reacts. And it's just different.Different roast risk profiles as he moves through the life cycle ofentrepreneurship. But the seed in Syria's a world that's all aboutfinding these home run deals on a home run is like 50 102 100 x. And I seeinexperienced cedar angel investors, you know, cell like an early winner for,like a 234 x, And I'm just like, Come on, that's not the game you're andyou're not a growth equity investor. You have that you have to ride winners,and you have to put more capital into them if you can. And that's the hardpart. When you're a seat angel investors. As the big capital partnerscome in, you get closed out of your allocations because they want everydollar they could get.

Do you try to do pro rata rights onevery single deal that you. So if you're a cedar angel investor, youdefinitely you try to get those in or you get them in. But what happens isthe rest of your investors wave those when the big when the big investorcomes along and it's a nice markup for everyone was like, Oh yeah, sure, theycan have as much they want. It's a real problem for a seat in Angel Investor.You want to get one of work. You you backed it early. It's working. You wanttoe double down and and sometimes you can't. And that's why having reallygood relationships with the founder and management team is that's what driveseverything, because then that team will will make sure that you have a place.What are you doing now? Posts operating post founder rule? Yes, it's fun. Ihave much more sane pace of life, and I get to sit on boards and do someadvising, and I've really had a chance to work with some cool cos um Brad Cope.It's an artifact uprising. Artifact was an early galvanized community membercompany that was started by two awesome sisters who built it and sold it. ToeVisual supply company Visco on Excel Splendid Company in the Bay and inspring of 2017 Bread Cope. It's paying me here's own it, weakened by thisthing out and I'm gonna do we should. And so that happened. Kevin McInerney.Josh got myself, Brad, and that happened in August of 17 and Gashbreads done an incredible job with it over the past four years is justamazing. Entrepreneur in Operator. It's a fun, small world galvanise story,because Brad was working at Active Junkie on one side of the galvanizedfirst campus and left after junkie to go work with Jenna and Katie itartifact Uprising on the other side of the campus. That was something that wehad talked about. We were like, You know, there's gonna be some poaching oftalent inside the walls and and what we said was, Look, we can't restrain traitIf that happens, that happens. But Kevin, who is a dear friend, was reallyupset with me when it happened. And he's like, Do we might have believedallies. This is what's gonna happen. I'm like I get it. I understand, I said.I probably would have preferred that you know the people who were Brad andcome and talk to you like college football. Coach, Can we talk to yourcoach? But again, we didn't want to restrain trade, so artifacts been areally fun one. Another company that I enjoyed working with arrested on theboard is vinyl Me, please. It's Ah, vinyl record Membership Club thatbootstrapped. It's wait a 10 million in in annual revenue and 28,000 members.It's awesome. There's amazing operators since I think that story is more andmore common in Denver, where you've got these people who start something andand don't raise capital. But just focus on grinding and build a good business.And Matt Fiedler, Cameron and Tyler, who who are the key guys, um, havehonored me, please, and now, more recently, about it, Lloyd Star and inan awesome finance professional like they're just people who put their noseto the grindstone and make it happen. There's a lot of those stories withinDenver, even even rents bits. My last company had never raised money, cashflow positive and ah, and you know, I gotta say galvanize was really a key tothat. Just building that community and building out the network. Um, so, youknow, I've never actually had a chance that Thank you. Thank you. Wait, Whatdid S o r pleasure? And to your point, I miss it. I miss being on the campusevery day, surrounded by other officers. They're doing exactly what we weretrying to do. And that's I think that's why galvanized formerly worked is theWe galvanize itself. We were doing the same thing that all of you were doing.We're tryingto figure out our business model and build a business. And so Ifeel like we we were authentic to the community, and the community wasauthentic to us. And, you know, I totally missed that five. Obviously, ina covert world, it's It's probably a little difficult toe have that, youknow, physical presence. But I miss I miss the energy and being surrounded bypeople were building stuff every day. Let's take this out with one lastquestion. If a new entrepreneur came up to you and wanted to start a company,what advice would you give out your personal spending cut? Your personalhimself was much runway as possible,...

That is. You know, I've never heardthat before, but that is dead on. You have so many people that even might beworking at a job today making a good amount of money. They might have amortgage or two mortgages, maybe a couple cars, and they want to start acompany. But they want to keep everything that they had in the past.And, uh, it all comes to even personal cash flow. Yeah, you got You got to cutyour spending 100% right? You got to stay in the game you get So it's likepoker. You can't hit gamblers room. You have to have enough enough chips whereyou can continue to sit at the table and and and hang in this. You know, ifyou if you run out of money and you have to shut it down, you know theanswer. If you can hang around, you have a chance to continue to buildsomething that's right. And in poker, it's calledthe Bankroll. And professional poker players understand that you're gonnahave your ups and downs. Um, and you have to make the right bets at theright time when you're up, and that happens a lot. I dated a basis. You'regonna have, uh, really highs, really high highs and low lows, and they couldfluctuate on. Yeah, that's the thing, right? Everything is amplified in thenoise stage company. Right? If you let's say you close a $10 million dealand you work it Google. Yeah. No big deal, right? It didn't really changethe direction of the business. But you close a $10 million deal in a companythat's doing two million a year in revenue. That's a really high samething. You miss out on a $10 million deal at Google. OK, no big deal. We'llgo get the next one. But if you're in a small business, it's, you know, lowlows. Also, it's just crazy. Everything is amplified. All right, Chris, I wantto thank you again for taking the time to show your experience with with ourlisteners. And hopefully I could have you on Thanks again. Appreciate it.

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