The Big Exit
The Big Exit

Episode 5 · 1 year ago

Chris Onan on Being the Reluctant Co-Founder and Selling for $165MM

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Chris Onan sat down with Dan Daugherty to discuss what it took to build a multi-million dollar Denver based company that eventually led to a $165MM all cash acquisition deal with K12, Inc. Chris also talks about raising money and investing in other startups.

Sample Transcript:

Intro:

Welcome to The Big Exit, where we discussed startup acquisitions with the founders who lived it. Here's your host, Dan Daugherty.

Dan Daugherty

Welcome to this episode of the big exit. Today, I have Chris Onan, a good friend, entrepreneur, and one of the co-founders of Galvanize that earlier this year sold for $165 million. Chris, it is so awesome to have you on the show.

Chris Onan

Well, thanks for having me, man.

Dan Daugherty

Let's get started by giving our listeners a brief overview of what Galvanize is and why you guys came together, really almost a decade ago to start it.

Chris Onan

Yeah, I want to say it was first quarter of 2012. So gosh, eight years. That's crazy. Um, Galvanize, fundamentally at the core was an education business. You know, we looked at the problems that tech companies we're just having trouble finding tech talent or enough of it, and particularly in Colorado. And we said, Look, there's gotta be a better way to do this. And Eric Mitisek called me one day and said, Hey, I got these two guys and they're working on something, but they need you and that was really where it started.

I met my co founders over a couple glasses of wine up at the Venture Capital Rockies Conference. Something Way is a venture capital community used to hold in kind of Denver Boulder because we couldn't find investors from the coast come and look at deals in Colorado. Well, that's changed. That conference outlived itself and now more investors love coming to Colorado. I met my two co-founders and I was like, Whoa, that's a lot. Because at the time it think It was really focused on being a real estate play, and I'm trying to raise a fund, and I just said, "Hey, have fun storming the castle guys, that's just way too complicated."

And one of my co-founders called me a couple days later and said, "Hey, look, you know, we haven't figured it all out. Why don't you help us? What's the downside?" And I was like, don't use logic on me. It works. And so I just started kind of banging on it started tweaking it. I was the reluctant co-founder. It was. It was a little bit like the girl you're dating that you don't want your friends to know about. And then six months later, you know, you're like in a relationship that's a little bit like that.

Welcome to the big accent, where we discussed startup acquisitions with the founders who lived in Here's your host, Dan Daugherty. We had, like, a 10 companies move in the first kind of day, and we're all standing around eating pizza one afternoon and the floors are wet and it's dark. And I'm just like, man, is this gonna work? I couldn't just be a real estate place. Toe work had to be an enriching community that was focused on entrepreneurship and tax and gross. And we had some amazing people believe in us and bet us really early and probably. Yeah, well, maybe a little early for them to bet on us. But we were very fortunate. I mean, I think it was pretty much five years of shooter. Welcome, Teoh. This episode of the big exit today I have Chris owning a good friend, entrepreneur and one of the co founders of Galvanize That earlier this year sold for 165 million. Chris, it is so awesome to have you on the show. Well, thanks for having me, man. Let's get started by giving our listeners a brief overview of what galvanize is and why you guys came together really almost a decade ago to start it. Yeah, I want to say it was first quarter of 2012. So gosh, eight years. That's crazy. Um, galvanize, Fundamentally at the core was an education business. You know, we looked at the problems that tech companies was my construct, that we're just having trouble finding tech talent or enough of it, and particularly in Colorado on. And we said, Look, there's gotta be a better way to do this. And Eric Matisse sick called me one day and said, Hey, I got these two guys and they're working on something, but they need you And that was really where it started. I met my co founders over Got couple glasses of wine up the venture capital Iraqis Conference. Something Way is a venture capital community used to hold in in kind of Denver Boulder because we couldn't find investors from a coast come and look at deals in Colorado. Well, that's changed. That conference outlived itself is not necessarily more investors love coming to Colorado, and I met my two co founders and I was like, Whoa, that's a lot because at the time I think It was really focused on being a real estate play, and I'm trying to raise a fund and then maybe also do. Some suffered overtraining, and I just said, Hey, have have fun storming the castle guys, let's just way too complicated. And one of my co founders called me a couple days later said, Hey, look, you know, we haven't figured it all out. You know? Why don't you help us? What's the downside? And I was like, Don't use logic on me. It works. And so I just started kind of banging on it on DWI, started revving it and tweaking it. I was the reluctant co founder. It was. It was a little bit like the girl you're dating that you don't want your friends to know about me. And then six months later, you know, you're you're like in a relationship that's a little bit like that. Um, and it was It was kind of a three month process, you know, where we were just kind of white boarding and kind of grinding, and we basically decided, Hey, let's flip real estate on its head If you think about, you know, for ah, high growth business if you have to sign a lease for a fixed amount of square footage for a fixed charm two years, three years, five years. It's not only not helpful because, ah, hydro startup is either gonna grow fast or shrink fast one of the two. But it's not going to stay the same in most cases, and if it is staying the same, that is generally not working out. And so the kind of classic real estate model is not only not helpful for entrepreneurs, it's perfectly orthogonal. And that was why we said, Look, no leases, no contingent liabilities if your company's growing and you want more space inside a galvanized campus. Awesome. If your company is shrinking and you want to go back to the garage and just come for events and come to find students and mentor wonderful, it...

...really was. The ethos was set up to make life difficult for commercial real estate owners and make life better for entrepreneurs and operators. And the key, the key way that was gonna happen was providing these young and growing companies with access to tech talent because if if you're Google or send Druitt or Ping identity and you have money for the free lunches and the massages and all that stuff, you can attract better talent. And this and the start up companies that are smaller really needed to find more junior talent. What's that line from the Untouchables? Mori says. You don't you don't go to the tree. You don't go to the barrel, you go to the tree. Yeah, that was a little bit of the thesis of putting software Topol training at the core of Galvanize because that that that educated kind of workforce that was coming out of the Galvani suffered open programs was enriching the surrounding community. And then we always wanted to have a small seed fund to investment. Things that bubbled up from the campus is either people who came for events or companies over doing while our students, in some cases who left and started something, and it took us a little while to longer to make that happen. We opened the first campus in Denver, 30,000 square foot building. People told us we were insane. It wasn't really even ready to be open in September of 12 for number started week, but we opened anyway, and we hosted a ton of the kickoff events of the big parties and, uh, on I want to say we had, like, a 10 companies move in the first kind of day, and we're all standing around eating pizza one afternoon and the floors are wet and it's dark. And I was like, Man, this is gonna work. And it was one of those, like check yourself moments and then, you know, on January 24th of 2013. So 34 months later, we had our first suffered over cohort of 24 students start in the night before. I was like an expectant father. I was basically Are they gonna show up for the class tomorrow? Because because if they don't show up, we have empty spots. You know the planes already taken off. You can't have people join midstream there late because the paces of learning is so fast. And it was really kind of a magical day. Galvanized history when those 24 students showed up and the energy in the classroom and we hosted a cocktail party. I can't refuse that first night or or that week with the surrounding community members, and you probably remember this and the energy of having the students who were there to learn and want to access this amazing tech world and entrepreneurship. We're surrounded by all the companies that were doing exactly that, right? And if you remember, we had your company, we had uber's. Uber's Colorado headquarters was in the offices. I mean, it was just a, you know, Kevin McInerney's company, Active junkie. I mean, it was really It was just a really crazy fun vibe. And as we looked around at the cocktail party and saw it was happening, you know, I think the three of us who started galvanized like, uh, we were onto something. No, Uh, that's Ah, you know, I remember. Precisely even before that time, you gave me a hard hat and we walked around that facility. The first facility that you had, I think it was off a Delaware. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Lisa thought we recruited Lisa. Thought you were crazy. Uh, but I just saw the vision of what you guys were doing from that very early stage, and I knew there was something there. It's funny how getting the perspective from you once it launched was it going to be successful. And then once you started getting all these great companies in and even the students that started, I mean, it was you guys were building a community that was sober, vibrant even from the very beginning. That was, for me the turning point while these guys were to be really successful. Yeah. I mean, I think people people bet on us early like you and Lisa bet on us early with Rep. It's and Doug Llewellyn, who was...

...running Manta and which was a really big company in Ohio, that he was running it of Colorado's. That's where he lived. Kevin and Dani from Active junkie will from uber the Gush, Danny Neumann's company proximity. And we had a lot of early community, medium community members just basically say we're gonna we're gonna do this, we're gonna be a part of this. And we also had one of the things that we did early. It was we couldn't just be a real estate place toe work and had to be an enriching community that was focused on entrepreneurship and tack and growth. And so one of the things we did is we asked people like Joe Zeller grow tech ventures, Luke, baby, multiple times serial entrepreneur Andre Durand to be mentors and come and hold office hours for the community. And people did that in droves. It got to be You got to be such a thing that people would reach out cold and ask if they could come and be mentors. And we had to kind of say, Now we had to curate it because we we didn't want people Huck and services. What we really wanted was seasoned entrepreneurs and investors and operators and angel investors coming in, being a part of the galvanized community is great, but we benefited one. It was the right time, right? Denver was kind of ready for entrepreneurship to really start to be recognized and enriched. I mean, Denver started. Was was first year demo started. Week was the first year we started galvanized, so kind of perfect timing. You know what Ben Data and Eric Matisse, sick and Tammy Door have done with number started? Week is nothing short of incredible that he gets the largest free entrepreneurial event in North America, and they just start of it in 2012. And I believe it's gonna be all virtual this year, But kudos to them. And I think Calvin has really benefitted from that tailwind. And I think the entrepreneurs and the investors in town, we're ready to have more of a sense of community. And it was crazy how many people were like, Yeah, cool. I think we're in. We're gonna be a part of this now. And I would I would be like, really you are. That was I was always surprised when companies like yours were like, No, no, no. We're gonna anchor down this place. We're going to do this. And it was very it was awesome. People were so good to us. And, you know, I remember Greg Becker, who is the CEO of silicon by bank, came and checked out the first galvanize campus on Delaware. You know, maybe 34 months before we opened. Josh Dorsey, who ended up being our banker, brought him and Becker walk through and heard the pitch. And he goes, Yeah, were in. What do you need from us? And I was like, Really? That's great, Totally stunned. It was awesome. There's a There's a lot of those ah, experiences that we had not prior prior to galvanize you were you were deep in in venture capital. So So you had the timing that you just mentioned. You had the team, and then obviously, this was a pretty, um, capital intensive venture that you guys then went on to raise additional funds. Correct. Yeah, I know. You're absolute right. Fundraising was a huge part of my life for the approximately five years that I was a galvanized and just with, you know, I had been with three or four different venture funds and probably invested at the time, maybe invested in 100 some companies, But a recurring theme kept coming up when I was on a board when I was observer. You know, CEOs were more than happy to have me help them with work, you know, if they needed study on it. Okay. What what member of my team should have? What percentage of options? What would commercial real estate broker should we hire defined space? You know, if you re willing to do that, that would work. CEOs was about time with you, but when it came to like, strategic advice, I probably had CEOs told me. Well, you never really done it you have been an entrepreneur. You have been an operator. So you don't really know, you know, because I've really just been a consultant than an investor, which probably means I hadn't really created any GDP in my career. Um, and and again, you know, the the opportunity to be part of, you know, the founding team that galvanized was was a chance to give that a try and see if I had the chops toe be an operator. And now, in my post galvanized career,...

I think CEOs are a little more willing to listen to me because of what happened to galvanize. But back to your question. I think you were asking a capital. Yeah, I know. We galvanize was a big swing, even from the early days. And capital raising was like job Juan. And I think in my time, a galvanized, ultimate raised 60 or 70 million in capital. Um, and the 1st 20 to 30 million of that was a family office and angel capitals, and we had some amazing people believe in us and bet on us really early and probably Yeah, you know, we were maybe a little early for them to that honest, but we were very fortunate. I am What, as it turned out, I loved fundraising. It was probably my favorite thing. So that was one of your favorite things. What was one of the least favorite things of starting a company in running a company? I mean, I think it was pretty much five years of shooter way. We're never within, like, you know, 60 days of running out of money. But I would say we were constantly somewhere between 90 and 100 and 50 days of running out of money. And so it was you for five years for five years. And then then And that's what ultimately led to me deciding it was time to go. I was. In August of 2016 we closed a $45 million series, be led by a B S capital, Parker's and has had a bulletproof balance sheet. And I felt good about the team, and I could kind of gracefully depart and have a more sane pace of life and then not have all those angels and family offices that came in early. Be pissed that I left the company in the lurch, and a lot of those people that came in early. Uh, you know, I still work with, you know, on things today and continue to appreciate their support. Nearly does. It was your cap table a mess or consolidated lettuce? I think different perspectives from different folks are Syria's. A lead would say it was messy. He made a comment means like, whoa, raising a retail, you know, kind of taking taking a dig because he was in New York. Money. Yeah, who ended up loving and working really closely with for years. To this day, we work together. Um, but I didn't think it was that bad. We probably had a third of your 40 folks on the cap table, so I didn't think it was. I don't think it was absurd, but it certainly could have been cleaner. So you laughed, but you still had an active role. Are you still on the board? I wasn't on the boat. I wasn't on the was on the board, but I had a good active dialogue with the Siri's a lead, Daniel Bianco from University Ventures and the Siri's be lead pulmonary Ani for maybe s Capital partners. And if they ever needed my help when that happened? A lot. After my after I left, I was more than happy to help them. When when did you guys decide to potentially sell the company? What was it? Was it a while ago? Was it was it? You know, six months ago, prior to the acquisition was there was it was always on your mind. You know, it was pretty clear to me when the board brought in Carl Meyer to be executive chairman and then promoted Harsh Patel, who had who had been see of Hacker Act, which really good business based in San Francisco. The Galvanized acquired, I think, galvanized acquired hacker actor in Gosh, I think probably I think that closed in the summer of 2018 that they were getting the business ready to sell. Karl has a long history of coming in late stages of businesses and providing riel professionalism to set things up for an acquisition. And I think it probably happened sooner than the board. And Carl thought because there was inbound interest, Carl and Harsh and Team had done a nice job improving the unit economics and the fundamentals and K 12 education came along. I think you made him an offer that they they said, Hey, we have toe, we have to do this and that That decision was obviously handled at the board level by the preferred investors. Um, but I think ultimately great outcome, particularly with the benefit of hindsight of what's happened here. In 2020 right? The face price was 165 million in cash. There are some other things that make that a bigger number. And look, you know, the galvanized board made the best decision they could...

...at the time. K 12 stock is up three x since January of of this year, largely because they have a distance learning component What they do. And so I'm not throwing rocks at the galvanized board. I think they made a good decision, but, gosh, if they'd taken stock, it's a five or $600 million exit, which is, you know, that's a that's a really big one in Colorado. Let's talk about that briefly so some entrepreneurs will be lucky enough to get a term sheet or potentially be acquired, and that question usually comes up. Should I take all cash, take all stock? Should I take some can. Now I'm starting or earn out. Right? Um, what would you recommend to entrepreneurs that are lucky enough to be in that position? Every situation is a little different, and it really depends on the acquirer, Right? There were definitely some rumblings in the early days that we work. Wanted to try to acquire, galvanize and use their paper. You know their stock to do so based on the timing that it probably still would've worked out. But we just didn't We didn't like that business. Coworking is a stand alone wasn't something that got us excited. We liked the kind of membership component for tech companies because it enrich student experience that we end. That's why it was such an important part of the community. And so every situation is a little bit different. Um, I'm trying to think of a recent acquisition here. Look, Brand folder was just acquired and smart sheets really hot. Seattle based company that's public came along and offered a mix of cash and stock, and my guess is that Luke and his forward decided they wanted some stock because they believed in what smart sheets was doing, and they probably did a lot of diligence and drilled in the financials and bookings and said, Hey, you know, we're not gonna take it all in stock but we'll take a third. It would be my guess in stock so that they could ride that a little bit further. Plus that I think they believe in Britain that brand folders gonna continue to grow inside smart sheets you're Maybe there's a situation where it's a really slow growth kind of mainline industry company has been around for 20 years, and when they come to acquire, you probably want to take all cash, and it's it's really evaluating, you know. And then there's also the personal situation of the founders and the investors who were gonna receive the bulk of proceeds, Right? If you're If you're in a good situation and you want to swing for the fences, then maybe you ride more stock. If you If you want to have the personal balance sheet apologize to your spouse or significant of it for the past 5 to 10 years of Harper can neglect, then then then you maybe you take more cash, right? Did. Ah, it's kind of funny that you mentioned smart smart sheets in it. Must have been February for my 41st birthday. Um, my wife Robyn, of course. You know, she sent me out to Vegas and I was playing blackjack. And next to me is Mark Maitre, who is one of the founders and the CEO of SMARTSHEET. And we just started talking. And, of course, Luke who you and I know well, a Z just mentioned I think they sold 100. I think it was 100 and 10 million, maybe more, but that that was just announcing three 155 months. Really nice deal. I don't think there is a 10 a capital, so it's highly efficient, which is so, Luke. Strategy means a hell of an operator in an investor and entrepreneur. It's a good story because he also sold associated content to. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I know that was a deal that I tried to get into, but I was late and it didn't happen. I'm always bummed about that. What are your biggest regrets as it relates to, uh, investing in companies like deals that I missed out on? Yeah, man, all birth. That was one that Nick...

Lyman on our Galvanize Venture fund team found I think it was the summer of 15 and we're out in San Francisco and we were doing like, a strategic offsite after a board meeting. And I had, like, these horrific stomach pains ended up going to the hospital, getting an m r I and all this stuff, and I basically came back and I was like, Okay, I'm probably well enough to go meet everybody at the bar and have a drink, and Nick introduces me to this guy who's got this shoe that's made out of this bullets all cool. And I'm just like, yeah, I can't process is right now basically is like a nice meeting. I'm gonna come back to the hotel and take a nap, and you know, we never did that deal, and that was a huge mistake. So kudos to Nick for finding it now. And I believe you were really an uber that through. I can't claim full credit for that. Where I was early was Chris Coggins, Tim Connor and I made a small investment in David Cone's for Seed Fund, which at the time was called bullet time Ventures. Now it's Techstars Ventures. But I think David raised five million bucks from you know, people in the community who who were in and around tech and Techstars. And, you know, we put a little Elsie together and gushing to that end up being a heroic investment because you send rid twilio uber and there's there's a couple more in there that are just monsters. It's just a It's an amazing vehicle. So kudos to David Cohen and it was It was fun just to be able to follow the uber story and have ah and have ah dog in this light. If you could guess what was that original, would you say three million or five million? What do you think that's within two o the investment in number? Yes, uber probably send you flying. Say this in a way that doesn't give away confidential stuff. I think you know, I think it was like a $5 million vehicle, and I would bet you that on a multiple of capital, it's one of the top 10 best performing funds in history. So fantastic. Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. I don't think David gets enough credit for how good he is. investing because he's he doesn't He doesn't publicly disclose a ton about about the returns, but it's pretty impressive. You know what? Let me put it this way. It was It was a small investment at a time, and it became much less small. What is a good success rate for these in terms of percentage of deals that win or like on a combined basis? What? Because there's a few different ways to look at that. Let's look at it from a percentage of deals within the portfolio that that gay never let me. Let me answer it slightly differently. They're different. They're different types of investors at different stages. And your angel seed investors. It's probably less about what percentage return capital. Because he if you're playing angel seed, Return of capital is not answering. Two X is not interesting. You really need to have one in there. That's like a 30 50 or 100 X type deal. If you're in the seed Angel World. If you're a series A maybe maybe you want half the deals to produce returning. You want you know one of them to be a 20 to 30 X growth equity investors. You know, underwrite to a three X and hope for five, and they assume that 80% are gonna deliver that. So they're kind of, you know, it's much more your mood, your private equity. But you're moving that way where it's all about show me demonstrated track record and he's gonna turn the crank and I'm gonna get us reacts. And it's just different. Different roast risk profiles as he moves through the life cycle of entrepreneurship. But the seed in Syria's a world that's all about finding these home run deals on a home run is like 50 102 100 x. And I see inexperienced cedar angel investors, you know, cell like an early winner for, like a 234 x, And I'm just like, Come on, that's not the game you're and you're not a growth equity investor. You have that you have to ride winners, and you have to put more capital into them if you can. And that's the hard part. When you're a seat angel investors. As the big capital partners come in, you get closed out of your allocations because they want every dollar they could get.

Do you try to do pro rata rights on every single deal that you. So if you're a cedar angel investor, you definitely you try to get those in or you get them in. But what happens is the rest of your investors wave those when the big when the big investor comes along and it's a nice markup for everyone was like, Oh yeah, sure, they can have as much they want. It's a real problem for a seat in Angel Investor. You want to get one of work. You you backed it early. It's working. You want toe double down and and sometimes you can't. And that's why having really good relationships with the founder and management team is that's what drives everything, because then that team will will make sure that you have a place. What are you doing now? Posts operating post founder rule? Yes, it's fun. I have much more sane pace of life, and I get to sit on boards and do some advising, and I've really had a chance to work with some cool cos um Brad Cope. It's an artifact uprising. Artifact was an early galvanized community member company that was started by two awesome sisters who built it and sold it. Toe Visual supply company Visco on Excel Splendid Company in the Bay and in spring of 2017 Bread Cope. It's paying me here's own it, weakened by this thing out and I'm gonna do we should. And so that happened. Kevin McInerney. Josh got myself, Brad, and that happened in August of 17 and Gash breads done an incredible job with it over the past four years is just amazing. Entrepreneur in Operator. It's a fun, small world galvanise story, because Brad was working at Active Junkie on one side of the galvanized first campus and left after junkie to go work with Jenna and Katie it artifact Uprising on the other side of the campus. That was something that we had talked about. We were like, You know, there's gonna be some poaching of talent inside the walls and and what we said was, Look, we can't restrain trait If that happens, that happens. But Kevin, who is a dear friend, was really upset with me when it happened. And he's like, Do we might have believed allies. This is what's gonna happen. I'm like I get it. I understand, I said. I probably would have preferred that you know the people who were Brad and come and talk to you like college football. Coach, Can we talk to your coach? But again, we didn't want to restrain trade, so artifacts been a really fun one. Another company that I enjoyed working with arrested on the board is vinyl Me, please. It's Ah, vinyl record Membership Club that bootstrapped. It's wait a 10 million in in annual revenue and 28,000 members. It's awesome. There's amazing operators since I think that story is more and more common in Denver, where you've got these people who start something and and don't raise capital. But just focus on grinding and build a good business. And Matt Fiedler, Cameron and Tyler, who who are the key guys, um, have honored me, please, and now, more recently, about it, Lloyd Star and in an awesome finance professional like they're just people who put their nose to the grindstone and make it happen. There's a lot of those stories within Denver, even even rents bits. My last company had never raised money, cash flow positive and ah, and you know, I gotta say galvanize was really a key to that. Just building that community and building out the network. Um, so, you know, I've never actually had a chance that Thank you. Thank you. Wait, What did S o r pleasure? And to your point, I miss it. I miss being on the campus every day, surrounded by other officers. They're doing exactly what we were trying to do. And that's I think that's why galvanized formerly worked is the We galvanize itself. We were doing the same thing that all of you were doing. We're tryingto figure out our business model and build a business. And so I feel like we we were authentic to the community, and the community was authentic to us. And, you know, I totally missed that five. Obviously, in a covert world, it's It's probably a little difficult toe have that, you know, physical presence. But I miss I miss the energy and being surrounded by people were building stuff every day. Let's take this out with one last question. If a new entrepreneur came up to you and wanted to start a company, what advice would you give out your personal spending cut? Your personal himself was much runway as possible,...

That is. You know, I've never heard that before, but that is dead on. You have so many people that even might be working at a job today making a good amount of money. They might have a mortgage or two mortgages, maybe a couple cars, and they want to start a company. But they want to keep everything that they had in the past. And, uh, it all comes to even personal cash flow. Yeah, you got You got to cut your spending 100% right? You got to stay in the game you get So it's like poker. You can't hit gamblers room. You have to have enough enough chips where you can continue to sit at the table and and and hang in this. You know, if you if you run out of money and you have to shut it down, you know the answer. If you can hang around, you have a chance to continue to build something that's right. And in poker, it's called the Bankroll. And professional poker players understand that you're gonna have your ups and downs. Um, and you have to make the right bets at the right time when you're up, and that happens a lot. I dated a basis. You're gonna have, uh, really highs, really high highs and low lows, and they could fluctuate on. Yeah, that's the thing, right? Everything is amplified in the noise stage company. Right? If you let's say you close a $10 million deal and you work it Google. Yeah. No big deal, right? It didn't really change the direction of the business. But you close a $10 million deal in a company that's doing two million a year in revenue. That's a really high same thing. You miss out on a $10 million deal at Google. OK, no big deal. We'll go get the next one. But if you're in a small business, it's, you know, low lows. Also, it's just crazy. Everything is amplified. All right, Chris, I want to thank you again for taking the time to show your experience with with our listeners. And hopefully I could have you on Thanks again. Appreciate it.

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